yesterday i was working in the pharmacy and i wanted some marked down halloween candy so i grabbed some and brought it back to the pharmacy
manager came after me and asked if i'd paid for it and i told her no
she said 'that's shopping on the clock; thats termination. go put it back'
i assume it was just a warning as i was allowed to continue working thru the day.
but i thought 'shopping on the clock' was actually paying for something while being on the clock (which pharmacy employees often do, for example, meds)
i knew they didn't want us to hoard things in our department but i'm not sure i was ever formally informed that it was grounds for termination. is this true?
yesterday i was working in the pharmacy and i wanted some marked down halloween candy so i grabbed some and brought it back to the pharmacy
manager came after me and asked if i'd paid for it and i told her no
she said 'that's shopping on the clock; thats termination. go put it back'
i assume it was just a warning as i was allowed to continue working thru the day.
but i thought 'shopping on the clock' was actually paying for something while being on the clock (which pharmacy employees often do, for example, meds)
i knew they didn't want us to hoard things in our department but i'm not sure i was ever formally informed that it was grounds for termination. is this true?
The act of searching for and selecting items to possibly purchase is shopping. Even if you put the item back, it's still considered shopping. That being said, it sounds like you have a manager who is a stickler for following the letter of the law. I've been with Kroger for over 30 years and I don't know a single employee who has never shopped off the clock. By shopping off the clock, I mean stuff like quickly grabbing something to eat or drink before going on break or something similar. It should be something that you can purchase in two minutes or less. When it comes to grabbing stuff and setting it aside to purchase later, you have to be careful, especially if you work in the pharmacy. You're better off going ahead and paying for the item. At least then all they can do is tell you to go put it in your locker or car. Next time just be more careful.
Shopping on the clock gives an 'unfair advantage to employees' when purchasing items especially when it is half off sale after a holiday. My store usually doesnt make a big deal of it as long as it's not done constantly. But usually it's a No-no.
Kroger sees it like this: come in earlier to get the products you want.
I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and then clock in. Or, during my break if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work
Do not shop on the clock. Do not pick up items on the way to the time clock. Do not store product to buy after work. I have known people fired for doing so. Two were fired even after being warned. They were literally rolling a basket around and paying for groceries on the clock. This includes Starbucks. I know of one person who was suspended pending after I think buying starbucks, clocking in and then picking up coffee. I think she might still be fighting it. Another employee turned her in because they didn't get along. Other employees do this all the time. I knew another girl that was accused by another employee of stealing and was terminated without investigating. Took her 3 months(half that time to get the union to answer her call) to get her job back and she only got 2 weeks backpay. Could take 3 months to get an answer. I know another guy that clocked in and bought starbucks on the clock. A comanager saw him and asked him about it. The guy laughed at the comanager and the guy was terminated on the spot.
Everyone was warned when they signed the employee handbook when hired. Page 35 unless it has changed.
" Page | 35
Any violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action, up to and
including discharge.
EMPLOYEE PURCHASE POLICY
No employees are allowed to check out themselves or transact any
business for relatives and/or residents of their households.
Employees will not be allowed to accumulate product in the various
departments prior to the checkout. All merchandise sold to employees
must be rung on a cash register and is to be recorded item-by-item.
The employee's checkout transaction is the same as for a regular
customer.
All employee purchases are to be made when the employee is off the
clock. Items purchased for consumption or utilization in the store mus
have the register receipt attached to the merchandise. Consumption,
opening, or utilization of any merchandise, or items not previously paid
for, including distressed, damaged, or out-of-date product, will result
in discharge.
During the times the store is not open for regular business,
employees are permitted to purchase merchandise through the
cash register when authorized by store management.
Products purchased and partially consumed will not be stored in
coolers or backrooms after employee breaks or lunches. Product
stored in employee lockers must have a receipt attached.
s and product being purchased by an employee must have
All iter
been previously offered for sale to the general public in the same
being paid by an employee.
physical state and at the same
No special consideration or prices will be taken or received by
employees. No employee will weigh, wrap, price or reduce in price.
of a relative or friend.
any merchandise that is for his own u
Policy on purchasing limits and redeeming procedures (including
vendor or Kroger coupons, gift certificates and bottle refunds) must
be followed
by both the employee doing the checking and the
employee purchasing merchandise.
Failure to have a receipt for product to be consumed or
removed from the store will result in discharge.
All merchandise removed from the store must be paid for in full
before removing it from the store.
Any violation of Employee Purchase Policy will result in discharge.
Version 02/2011"
-- Edited by Anonymouse1 on Monday 2nd of November 2020 04:43:18 PM
Do not shop on the clock. Do not pick up items on the way to the time clock. Do not store product to buy after work. I have known people fired for doing so. Two were fired even after being warned. They were literally rolling a basket around and paying for groceries on the clock. This includes Starbucks. I know of one person who was suspended pending after I think buying starbucks, clocking in and then picking up coffee. I think she might still be fighting it. Another employee turned her in because they didn't get along. Other employees do this all the time. I knew another girl that was accused by another employee of stealing and was terminated without investigating. Took her 3 months(half that time to get the union to answer her call) to get her job back and she only got 2 weeks backpay. Could take 3 months to get an answer. I know another guy that clocked in and bought starbucks on the clock. A comanager saw him and asked him about it. The guy laughed at the comanager and the guy was terminated on the spot.
Everyone was warned when they signed the employee handbook when hired. Page 35 unless it has changed.
That's why I never sign anything. If your union steward is on the ball, they will tell you the only thing you have to sign is stuff that has to do with payroll or time and attendence. Remember, anything you sign can and will be used against you if something happens
yesterday i was working in the pharmacy and i wanted some marked down halloween candy so i grabbed some and brought it back to the pharmacy
manager came after me and asked if i'd paid for it and i told her no
she said 'that's shopping on the clock; thats termination. go put it back'
i assume it was just a warning as i was allowed to continue working thru the day.
but i thought 'shopping on the clock' was actually paying for something while being on the clock (which pharmacy employees often do, for example, meds)
i knew they didn't want us to hoard things in our department but i'm not sure i was ever formally informed that it was grounds for termination. is this true?
You should have said. Look B we put up with a lot this past year and I want some Candy. I am gonna pay for it when I clock out for break or end of shift. So go run the store and not the Pharmacy B.
That's why I never sign anything. If your union steward is on the ball, they will tell you the only thing you have to sign is stuff that has to do with payroll or time and attendence. Remember, anything you sign can and will be used against you if something happens
Yah, but if people are hired like I was:
First day of orientation I was handed the paperwork to sign up for the union and the last page of the employee handbook to sign.
No new hire will know to say no unless someone tells them otherwise.
That's why I never sign anything. If your union steward is on the ball, they will tell you the only thing you have to sign is stuff that has to do with payroll or time and attendence. Remember, anything you sign can and will be used against you if something happens
Yah, but if people are hired like I was:
First day of orientation I was handed the paperwork to sign up for the union and the last page of the employee handbook to sign.
No new hire will know to say no unless someone tells them otherwise.
Not only that, but don't you have to make it through the probation period before the union can do anything for you? Pretty sure you do. It's a slick ass back door manuver, but it's foolproof.
Shopping on the clock would be purchasing or selecting items for your personal usage. Normally, if someone is terminated for shopping on the clock its because they are obviously stealing time. I don't any employee that didn't run to get a drink, candy, mints or whatever on the clock. It all really depends on if your obviously ignoring your task/job when your doing it.
thanks for the replies. well, we get no breaks in a 7-hour shift but our supervisors usually let us go get things. our department is non-union. like others have said, this is sort of a ubiquitous practice, but i am not going to argue about following rules. still i think it's kind of petty, because not everyone who's caught doing this is blatantly disregarding their job duties. i feel fairly sure that someone on the floor told on me, as said person had said something to me before about grabbing rubbing alcohol. and i appreciate that i got this opportunity to get caught and learn to be cautious going forward, but i'm also confused why she cared at all. at the end of the day i didn't steal anything or really do anything unethical besides the bare fact of violating company policy.
Shopping on the clock gives an 'unfair advantage to employees' when purchasing items especially when it is half off sale after a holiday. My store usually doesnt make a big deal of it as long as it's not done constantly. But usually it's a No-no. Kroger sees it like this: come in earlier to get the products you want. I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and then clock in. Or, during my break if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work
hey that doesnt sound like a terrible idea?
i've hid things i wanted in the store behind other things but sometimes the stockers find it
as much as i hate my job tho i need it AFAIK and i dont want to do ANYTHING where i have even a small chance of getting caught now
yesterday i was working in the pharmacy and i wanted some marked down halloween candy so i grabbed some and brought it back to the pharmacy
manager came after me and asked if i'd paid for it and i told her no
she said 'that's shopping on the clock; thats termination. go put it back'
i assume it was just a warning as i was allowed to continue working thru the day.
but i thought 'shopping on the clock' was actually paying for something while being on the clock (which pharmacy employees often do, for example, meds)
i knew they didn't want us to hoard things in our department but i'm not sure i was ever formally informed that it was grounds for termination. is this true?
Thats considered stealing stealing time. This is why you have breaks. Youre also not suppose to ring yourself up unless off the clock. the manager was correct and you should be terminated.
I buy my lunch and then clock out on break and then take my 15 minutes from when my butt hits the chair and ends after 15 minutes of sitting are up. I need time to eat and 15 minutes alone to buy and eat isn't gonna cut it. It might be against the rules but they're not paying me enough to care.
I buy my lunch and then clock out on break and then take my 15 minutes from when my butt hits the chair and ends after 15 minutes of sitting are up. I need time to eat and 15 minutes alone to buy and eat isn't gonna cut it. It might be against the rules but they're not paying me enough to care.
Hopefully they catch you stealing time and fire you on the spot. Thief.
Shopping on the clock gives an 'unfair advantage to employees' when purchasing items especially when it is half off sale after a holiday. My store usually doesnt make a big deal of it as long as it's not done constantly. But usually it's a No-no. Kroger sees it like this: come in earlier to get the products you want. I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and then clock in. Or, during my break if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work
Another untrusting thief of a employee. Hopefully youll get fired
thanks for the replies. well, we get no breaks in a 7-hour shift but our supervisors usually let us go get things. our department is non-union. like others have said, this is sort of a ubiquitous practice, but i am not going to argue about following rules. still i think it's kind of petty, because not everyone who's caught doing this is blatantly disregarding their job duties. i feel fairly sure that someone on the floor told on me, as said person had said something to me before about grabbing rubbing alcohol. and i appreciate that i got this opportunity to get caught and learn to be cautious going forward, but i'm also confused why she cared at all. at the end of the day i didn't steal anything or really do anything unethical besides the bare fact of violating company policy.
You dont do anything unethical but yet you stole time by shopping on the clock. You lost all credibility and are probably a career thief
yesterday i was working in the pharmacy and i wanted some marked down halloween candy so i grabbed some and brought it back to the pharmacy
manager came after me and asked if i'd paid for it and i told her no
she said 'that's shopping on the clock; thats termination. go put it back'
i assume it was just a warning as i was allowed to continue working thru the day.
but i thought 'shopping on the clock' was actually paying for something while being on the clock (which pharmacy employees often do, for example, meds)
i knew they didn't want us to hoard things in our department but i'm not sure i was ever formally informed that it was grounds for termination. is this true?
This is just another classic example of another ASSociate that thinks their entitled and the rules dont apply to them. Its gross negligence and its disgusting that youre allowed to handle valued customers prescriptions. who knows what else youve stolen since youve been there...
I buy my lunch and then clock out on break and then take my 15 minutes from when my butt hits the chair and ends after 15 minutes of sitting are up. I need time to eat and 15 minutes alone to buy and eat isn't gonna cut it. It might be against the rules but they're not paying me enough to care.
Hopefully they catch you stealing time and fire you on the spot. Thief.
Been doing it for 10 years now and no one's ever said one word.
In the grand scheme of things, I think picking up a bag of candy is MINOR. It's not like you were stealing or anything. I would say the manager overreacted. Your Pharmacy cashier could have rung you up if you asked to pay for the item. Kroger is starting to worry about minor petty stuff. It's a time waster. Let's concentrate on what IS important. If I was an FES, I would let it go.
thanks for the replies. well, we get no breaks in a 7-hour shift but our supervisors usually let us go get things. our department is non-union. like others have said, this is sort of a ubiquitous practice, but i am not going to argue about following rules. still i think it's kind of petty, because not everyone who's caught doing this is blatantly disregarding their job duties. i feel fairly sure that someone on the floor told on me, as said person had said something to me before about grabbing rubbing alcohol. and i appreciate that i got this opportunity to get caught and learn to be cautious going forward, but i'm also confused why she cared at all. at the end of the day i didn't steal anything or really do anything unethical besides the bare fact of violating company policy.
You dont do anything unethical but yet you stole time by shopping on the clock. You lost all credibility and are probably a career thief
The employee DIDN'T "steal time"-it probably took them all of 5 SECONDS to pick up the candy and go back to the Pharmacy. Is Kroger THAT worried about SECONDS? Sheesh!
thanks for the replies. well, we get no breaks in a 7-hour shift but our supervisors usually let us go get things. our department is non-union. like others have said, this is sort of a ubiquitous practice, but i am not going to argue about following rules. still i think it's kind of petty, because not everyone who's caught doing this is blatantly disregarding their job duties. i feel fairly sure that someone on the floor told on me, as said person had said something to me before about grabbing rubbing alcohol. and i appreciate that i got this opportunity to get caught and learn to be cautious going forward, but i'm also confused why she cared at all. at the end of the day i didn't steal anything or really do anything unethical besides the bare fact of violating company policy.
You dont do anything unethical but yet you stole time by shopping on the clock. You lost all credibility and are probably a career thief
The employee DIDN'T "steal time"-it probably took them all of 5 SECONDS to pick up the candy and go back to the Pharmacy. Is Kroger THAT worried about SECONDS? Sheesh!
Im sure they took longer than 5 seconds. Doesnt matter rules are rules. if one person thinks their entitled then so will others. They were shopping on the clock and should be written up or terminated. This isnt their first time doing this either so it should be termination
Shopping on the clock gives an 'unfair advantage to employees' when purchasing items especially when it is half off sale after a holiday. My store usually doesnt make a big deal of it as long as it's not done constantly. But usually it's a No-no. Kroger sees it like this: come in earlier to get the products you want. I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and then clock in. Or, during my break if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work
Another untrusting thief of a employee. Hopefully youll get fired
Stealing time will get you fired. I think you quoted the wrong person. What I said was COME IN EARLIER AND GET THE PRODUCT YOU WANT. I USUALLY GRAB THE ITEMS AND SET IT ASISE THEN CLOCK IN. OR DURING BREAK IF LINES ARE OUTRAGEOUS I SET IT ASIDE AND BUY AFTER WORK.
Point is I'm on break (MY TIME) when I grab said items.
Do not shop on the clock. Do not pick up items on the way to the time clock. Do not store product to buy after work. I have known people fired for doing so. Two were fired even after being warned. They were literally rolling a basket around and paying for groceries on the clock. This includes Starbucks. I know of one person who was suspended pending after I think buying starbucks, clocking in and then picking up coffee. I think she might still be fighting it. Another employee turned her in because they didn't get along. Other employees do this all the time. I knew another girl that was accused by another employee of stealing and was terminated without investigating. Took her 3 months(half that time to get the union to answer her call) to get her job back and she only got 2 weeks backpay. Could take 3 months to get an answer. I know another guy that clocked in and bought starbucks on the clock. A comanager saw him and asked him about it. The guy laughed at the comanager and the guy was terminated on the spot.
Everyone was warned when they signed the employee handbook when hired. Page 35 unless it has changed.
" Page | 35
Any violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action, up to and
including discharge.
EMPLOYEE PURCHASE POLICY
No employees are allowed to check out themselves or transact any
business for relatives and/or residents of their households.
Employees will not be allowed to accumulate product in the various
departments prior to the checkout. All merchandise sold to employees
must be rung on a cash register and is to be recorded item-by-item.
The employee's checkout transaction is the same as for a regular
customer.
All employee purchases are to be made when the employee is off the
clock. Items purchased for consumption or utilization in the store mus
have the register receipt attached to the merchandise. Consumption,
opening, or utilization of any merchandise, or items not previously paid
for, including distressed, damaged, or out-of-date product, will result
in discharge.
During the times the store is not open for regular business,
employees are permitted to purchase merchandise through the
cash register when authorized by store management.
Products purchased and partially consumed will not be stored in
coolers or backrooms after employee breaks or lunches. Product
stored in employee lockers must have a receipt attached.
s and product being purchased by an employee must have
All iter
been previously offered for sale to the general public in the same
being paid by an employee.
physical state and at the same
No special consideration or prices will be taken or received by
employees. No employee will weigh, wrap, price or reduce in price.
of a relative or friend.
any merchandise that is for his own u
Policy on purchasing limits and redeeming procedures (including
vendor or Kroger coupons, gift certificates and bottle refunds) must
be followed
by both the employee doing the checking and the
employee purchasing merchandise.
Failure to have a receipt for product to be consumed or
removed from the store will result in discharge.
All merchandise removed from the store must be paid for in full
before removing it from the store.
Any violation of Employee Purchase Policy will result in discharge.
Version 02/2011"
-- Edited by Anonymouse1 on Monday 2nd of November 2020 04:43:18 PM
And this is one of many reasons why working for Kroger is horsesh!t.
Do not shop on the clock. Do not pick up items on the way to the time clock. Do not store product to buy after work. I have known people fired for doing so. Two were fired even after being warned. They were literally rolling a basket around and paying for groceries on the clock. This includes Starbucks. I know of one person who was suspended pending after I think buying starbucks, clocking in and then picking up coffee. I think she might still be fighting it. Another employee turned her in because they didn't get along. Other employees do this all the time. I knew another girl that was accused by another employee of stealing and was terminated without investigating. Took her 3 months(half that time to get the union to answer her call) to get her job back and she only got 2 weeks backpay. Could take 3 months to get an answer. I know another guy that clocked in and bought starbucks on the clock. A comanager saw him and asked him about it. The guy laughed at the comanager and the guy was terminated on the spot.
Everyone was warned when they signed the employee handbook when hired. Page 35 unless it has changed.
" Page | 35
Any violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action, up to and
including discharge.
EMPLOYEE PURCHASE POLICY
No employees are allowed to check out themselves or transact any
business for relatives and/or residents of their households.
Employees will not be allowed to accumulate product in the various
departments prior to the checkout. All merchandise sold to employees
must be rung on a cash register and is to be recorded item-by-item.
The employee's checkout transaction is the same as for a regular
customer.
All employee purchases are to be made when the employee is off the
clock. Items purchased for consumption or utilization in the store mus
have the register receipt attached to the merchandise. Consumption,
opening, or utilization of any merchandise, or items not previously paid
for, including distressed, damaged, or out-of-date product, will result
in discharge.
During the times the store is not open for regular business,
employees are permitted to purchase merchandise through the
cash register when authorized by store management.
Products purchased and partially consumed will not be stored in
coolers or backrooms after employee breaks or lunches. Product
stored in employee lockers must have a receipt attached.
s and product being purchased by an employee must have
All iter
been previously offered for sale to the general public in the same
being paid by an employee.
physical state and at the same
No special consideration or prices will be taken or received by
employees. No employee will weigh, wrap, price or reduce in price.
of a relative or friend.
any merchandise that is for his own u
Policy on purchasing limits and redeeming procedures (including
vendor or Kroger coupons, gift certificates and bottle refunds) must
be followed
by both the employee doing the checking and the
employee purchasing merchandise.
Failure to have a receipt for product to be consumed or
removed from the store will result in discharge.
All merchandise removed from the store must be paid for in full
before removing it from the store.
Any violation of Employee Purchase Policy will result in discharge.
Version 02/2011"
-- Edited by Anonymouse1 on Monday 2nd of November 2020 04:43:18 PM
So what happens if I purchase something that comes in a six pack such as pudding or yogurt and I choose to bring one with me each day for break or lunch? Do I need to save my receipt for the next six working days? After just a few days it becomes unreadable.
Do not shop on the clock. Do not pick up items on the way to the time clock. Do not store product to buy after work. I have known people fired for doing so. Two were fired even after being warned. They were literally rolling a basket around and paying for groceries on the clock. This includes Starbucks. I know of one person who was suspended pending after I think buying starbucks, clocking in and then picking up coffee. I think she might still be fighting it. Another employee turned her in because they didn't get along. Other employees do this all the time. I knew another girl that was accused by another employee of stealing and was terminated without investigating. Took her 3 months(half that time to get the union to answer her call) to get her job back and she only got 2 weeks backpay. Could take 3 months to get an answer. I know another guy that clocked in and bought starbucks on the clock. A comanager saw him and asked him about it. The guy laughed at the comanager and the guy was terminated on the spot.
Everyone was warned when they signed the employee handbook when hired. Page 35 unless it has changed.
" Page | 35
Any violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action, up to and
including discharge.
EMPLOYEE PURCHASE POLICY
No employees are allowed to check out themselves or transact any
business for relatives and/or residents of their households.
Employees will not be allowed to accumulate product in the various
departments prior to the checkout. All merchandise sold to employees
must be rung on a cash register and is to be recorded item-by-item.
The employee's checkout transaction is the same as for a regular
customer.
All employee purchases are to be made when the employee is off the
clock. Items purchased for consumption or utilization in the store mus
have the register receipt attached to the merchandise. Consumption,
opening, or utilization of any merchandise, or items not previously paid
for, including distressed, damaged, or out-of-date product, will result
in discharge.
During the times the store is not open for regular business,
employees are permitted to purchase merchandise through the
cash register when authorized by store management.
Products purchased and partially consumed will not be stored in
coolers or backrooms after employee breaks or lunches. Product
stored in employee lockers must have a receipt attached.
s and product being purchased by an employee must have
All iter
been previously offered for sale to the general public in the same
being paid by an employee.
physical state and at the same
No special consideration or prices will be taken or received by
employees. No employee will weigh, wrap, price or reduce in price.
of a relative or friend.
any merchandise that is for his own u
Policy on purchasing limits and redeeming procedures (including
vendor or Kroger coupons, gift certificates and bottle refunds) must
be followed
by both the employee doing the checking and the
employee purchasing merchandise.
Failure to have a receipt for product to be consumed or
removed from the store will result in discharge.
All merchandise removed from the store must be paid for in full
before removing it from the store.
Any violation of Employee Purchase Policy will result in discharge.
Version 02/2011"
-- Edited by Anonymouse1 on Monday 2nd of November 2020 04:43:18 PM
And this is one of many reasons why working for Kroger is horsesh!t.
They need these rules in place to catch people like you.ofc you think its horse****, you thief.
Everyone from the DM down to the part time courtesy clerks from the group home would be in line at the Starbucks the minute it opened, so I guess everyone was breaking the rules at my store.
What Im disappointed in is all these so called employees. Saying someone should be terminated for something minor. Yall must be either the managers or what people would call Karens. Cause Ive seen a lot of karens in the messages. I know the rules say that. But its not fair to us employees that we cant get groceries because we dont have time. If people are putting items back and be like oh I want to buy this item I wont put it back. Thats apparently stealing. When they are still in the store and have not left. Instead of being made about this so called time thing get your ethics straight This is why we dont have employees at all. Because of stupid rules like this people are let go and tell others hey Kroger isnt a family company. Its a company who likes to snitch on you to your mom and get you grounded or kicked out of the house. This is petty stuff and honestly. Those who are rude and mean. You make me not want to be apparent of this company because you sound very toxic.
Shopping on the clock gives an 'unfair advantage to employees' when purchasing items especially when it is half off sale after a holiday. My store usually doesnt make a big deal of it as long as it's not done constantly. But usually it's a No-no. Kroger sees it like this: come in earlier to get the products you want. I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and then clock in. Or, during my break if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work
Another untrusting thief of a employee. Hopefully youll get fired
I usually grab the item(s) and set it aside and THEN clock in. Or, DURING MY BREAK if lines are impossible, I grab the item, hide it in the back and get it after work.
I do, believe what I said was that I get my items THEN clock in. Or if on a break I grab my items DURING MY BREAK then buy them after work :/
I mean I get it, but overall the whole thing is riduculous and punitive. Retail workers are enslaved to schedules that block them from shopping during feasible ours, what are they supposed to do? Go without so the customer can come first----second, AND last??
When I worked retail I did what others on here described. I'd hide sht til I was off the clock.
Orrrrrrr, just steal it outright. No record of that for mgmt to follow
